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December 02, 2008

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dontcallmeshirley

Hey John,

Gosh, you are persistent. Okay, we get it, mix of houses sold distorts the average. It's your blog, but fixating on this is making you appear less impartial.

You should have asked the economist what the value of an illiquid asset is (ie. no buyers) and also how to account for house mix being distorted by houses moving around in the price brackets (eg. a house that would have fetched $700k in a bidding war last year goes for $500k today - Tuesday).

And you know what, maybe TD economist can also answer how TD appraises a house when they front the mortgage.

Cheers!

Guru

Its funny how all these experts are pointing out these flaws in housing price declines when real estate prices are coming down, but did not mention the same problems when the real estate market was exploding.

If a 10% decline is really a 5% decline after taking into account the relative weight of BC and other high priced locations, well that means that the reported 20% gain was really only a 12.5% gain when the market was booming.

Please take into consideration who these experts are working for and what there angle is when reading these articles.

Eduard

Considering average sold price in my mined is less important than accepting median sold price statistics as the true scale of market pulse. Why is it that we don’t see more of that view?

dontcallmeshirley

Putzing around with the math of average price is a red herring.

The important question is how much longer can sellers hang on for?

Unemployment, lack of credit (everyone saw the Scotiabank news right?) and stock market losses will pressure sellers.

How much longer will they have sufficient cash flow to carry properties?

John Pasalis

@dontcallmeshirley
I hear you, I have not balanced the art of writing for both new readers and subscribers. I can appreciate how this is starting to sound a bit repetitive.

wrt. illiquid assets: real estate has always been a relatively illiquid asset. The fact that there are fewer buyers today means that it is just going to take a little longer to sell. I suspect you'll see more buyers in the new year.

@Guru,
I'm not sure maybe some economists didn't look into this because housing sales were relatively normal across Canadian cities. One city wasn't skewing the data either up or down.

But even if you are correct and the data was skewed up and a 20% increase was really a 12.5% increase, that's positive news for our real estate market.

@Eduard
I'm not sure why most of the real estate boards and associations report on average prices.

Brendan

John,


First off, great blog, I love how you take on some of the baseless TREB propaganda. However, to the point that more buyers are going to somehow appear in the new year, I struggle to figure out what basis you have this for happening.

In order to purchase a house a buyer needs to have job security, savings and a mortgage. All of those things have been put under immense pressure over the past 6-12 months.

Markets are down in excess of 40% (or even 50% depending on the day) which has destroyed most buyers down payments. Credit has tightened making it harder to secure a mortgage (actually it is just harder to secure a mortgage you can't afford, how novel!). Lastly, most organizations are looking to cut back, or at least freeze hiring and wages making many individuals less than certain about their future income streams.

I am surprised that the massive decline in global stock markets doesn't get more attention when it comes to the affect on buyers purchasing power. It has affected retires and pensions, so one can only assume it would affect savings of those looking to purchase real estate as well.

John Pasalis

Brendan,

Glad to hear you enjoy the blog.
There are a couple of reasons why I think there are going to be more buyers in the spring. I talk to and hear from a lot of buyers who tell me they are going to wait till the new year before they start looking again. Second, sales are historically low in the fall and they usually pick up in the spring.

One of the biggest factors driving the slow down in the real estate market is low consumer confidence. I think Canadians can handle news about a recession, but all the negative news surrounding the credit crisis and fears of another great depression really hurt consumer confidence. If credit markets continue to remain stable then consumer confidence will improve which will in turn have a positive impact on real estate sales. If US banks start falling like dominos again, all bets are off.

With respect to your concerns about the impact the stock markets might have on real estate sales, that's a tough one. I looked back at our last market crash in 2000 and interestingly enough sales in Toronto actually started to pick up after the market crashed. Sales reached record heights in 2002 just as the TSX hit its lowest level. I'm sure the market crash is going to have some immediate impact on our market and on consumer confidence, but I don't know if there is always a perfect correlation between stock market performance and real estate sales.

dontcallmeshirley

Hey John,

Preaching a message of hope will not end the current stalemate between buyers and sellers.

I would suggest that you, and all realtors, have a crucial role in breaking the stalemate.

How? Educate your sellers. Tell them the landscape has changed and that buyers are not "holding out"

Simply, there is now less cash flow out there to throw at a house purchase.

Buyers have gotten murdered on their mutual funds. Those will not come back because the stocks that make them have either disappeared (Lehman Brothers etc) or fundamentally changed (AIG etc).

Lots of lenders have written off hundreds of billions of dollars, they will be tight with future lending until they re-coup those losses.

Get that message out there, get sellers to set aside their pride, drop asking prices, and voila, you'll have a real estate market again.

You have to burn the other end of the candle to get this pig moving again.

Cheers!

lipstickonapig

First of all, I'm very impressed with the quality of the comments on this blog - there are some real insights here, especially the first post.

Second, people that benefit from a strong real estate market will obviously be biased when reporting on that market - go figure; so let's stop being so suprised when real estate agents say things aren't as bad as they appear, unless they have some thoughful and factual analysis to back it up!

Third, and this is for John to answer, why is there so little attention being paid to the fundamental value of real estate? If I buy a house now and I pay fair value for it, I am less concerned if the broader market falls 10% or even 20% in the next two years...all assets including houses have price cycles that follow their long-term mean. A recent WSJ article stated that the long-term (ie. 100 year) average home price should increase by inflation plus a percent or two; meaning if long-term inflation is around 3% you should expect to earn about 5% on your home year over year over the long term. Home prices should always revert to their mean. Take a look at what happened to the average home price for the GTA in the years 1986, 1987, 1988, and 1989; they increased 27%, 36%, 21%, and 19% respectively. Way higher than the long-term mean of 5%. This was driven in part by a period of high inflation and immigration. Reversion to the mean demanded that house prices "correct" for this period of abnormal price appreciation and as could be predicted, house prices in the GTA declined over the next seven years by an average of 4%. So if you take an average of the two periods, you get 6.6% year over year increase which is still higher than the mean but can be expected given the structural shift in demand resulting from immigration patterns. So what about today? From 1997 to 2007, home prices in the GTA have increased 6% year over year. This is slightly higher than the long-term mean of 5% but not by much. So on a fundamental basis house prices in the GTA don't deserve to go through a large correction as they did back in the early 1990s...there is a big difference between a fundamental price correction and a decline in prices due to consumer sentiment. The current state of the real estate market is more related to the latter than the former. If you take a normalized Toronto home price from 50 years ago and grow that home price by 5% until today, our current home prices are only slightly above that trend line and by no mean represent a bubble. And if you think the long-term average price increase should be 6% and not 5%, we are actually under the long-term trend and one could argue Toronto real estate is fundamentally undervalued! The bottom line is there is a big difference between fundamental value and market value. John, how about some fundamental analyis instead of the "less buyers in the Winter" analysis?

chris

You make good arguments, but let's look at macroeconomics:
- oil prices have been devastated
- commodity prices have fallen
- auto sector is near bankrupcy.
- US economy in shambles.

Who will suffer most? Ontario, BC, Alberta. Prices still need to adjust to the reality that Canada's export will be weaker, and that the job market will not support demand for homes.

chris

You make good arguments, but let's look at macroeconomics:
- oil prices have been devastated
- commodity prices have fallen
- auto sector is near bankrupcy.
- US economy in shambles.

Who will suffer most? Ontario, BC, Alberta. Prices still need to adjust to the reality that Canada's export will be weaker, and that the job market will not support demand for homes.

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